12-15-2021 TSC Meeting Minutes

Owned by LJ Illuzzi
Last updated: Dec 17, 2021 by Raga lahari
8 min read

TSC Meeting Zoom link

Meeting Recording

Meeting Chat File

Attendees & Representation. Please add your name to the attendance table below.



Attendees

Name

Company

@Daniel Havey

Microsoft

@Dave Thaler

Microsoft

Matteo Croce

Microsoft

@VM (Vicky) Brasseur

Wipro

@Santhosh Fernandes



@Satya Pradhan



@Eric Tice

Wipro

@Raga lahari

Walmart

@Balachandra Kamat

Wipro

































LF Staff:  @LJ Illuzzi

Agenda

  • Holiday schedule:

    • Meetings on Dec. 8, 15

    • Dec. 22 and 29th to be canceled

    • Jan 5th: Developer and Testing Forum Prep.

  • General Topics (cover as needed)

    • Use Cases

    • Roadmap

    • Project structure

      • Governance

      • Technical Steering Committee

Minutes/Updates

  • PEN request

    • Raga: Schedule call after this meeting

    • Dave: What layer of the org is the PEN assigned to?

      • L3AFD project, LF, L3AFP?

    • Louis: Just put it under LFN. Ramnifications?

    • Dave: Next PEN would probably have a sub-delegation under the original PEN

      • This is how MSFT does this so that there is a single management point.

    • Lous: Difference between L3AFd and L3AFP?

      • Dave: Github organization with different GitHub repos under it.

    • Louis: PEN that covers L3AF as a project and all current and future repos?

    • Dave: Common use of PENS is for OID and PEN is inserted into the OID with arbitrary number of layers underneath.

      • OIDs are used in x.509 certificats, etc.

    • Lous: How are we going to use the PEN for L3AF? Want a PEN that covers all of L3AF, but not all of LF or LFN,

      • Raga: As part of flow exporter we will add custom field support identified with PEN number.

    • Dave: Inventing a new slot that fields are going to go in, can it be just an array of fields of integers?

    • Raga: Will dig more and find out?

    • Dave: It matters to how we will fill out the application.

    • Raga: This is a requirement for the flow_exporter. We will not need another PEN number for L3AF.

    • Lous: Will reconsult with legal and set up call with Raga. Review by email with rest of L3AF team (if this is doable).

    • Dave: It's just a simple web form and cannot be pending

    • Dave: Do we use LF, L3AFP or L3AFd for the name?

      • Lous: Will discuss with legal.

    • Dev testing forum

      • Set date and time for MSFT presentation

  • Cross platform signing

  • Matteo: No way to do cross platform signing with eBPF programs

    • Implementation that allows loading eBPF programs to kernel that takes care of relocation

    • Created patch that does this. Creates eBPF prog and adds sig to it.

    • Dave: talked about 3 peices in kernel function marketplace

      • Orchestrator pulls stuff from marketplace

      • Can you put signed programs in the marketplace

      • We are discussing an option that allows remote distribution and is compatible with L3AF.

      • The other approach does not play well with the L3AF vision that we have discussed.

    • Vicky: Do we have representation as the L3AF at the kernel level where these decisions will be made?

      • Dave: Need Karan, Chris, ect. If we had a collective decision it would carry more weight.

        • This could be a call to create new contacts.

    • Dave: This discussion is happening on the Linux kernel list

      • MSFT would like cross-platform

      • Move to the eBPF foundation (which is cross-platform)?

    • Dave: Next BPF steering committee meeting would like L3AF to present.

      • Invited Karan.

    • Dave: BSC does not officially have an answer if the meeting is open.

      • Still have time to ask. Should be a yes answer (at least for this meeting)

    • Matteo: Proposed to BPF ML & then another solution appeared from the BPF maintainer

      • Very different solution: create an approve-list of programs that can load BPF programs

      • Only allow programs loaded from progs on this approve-list

      • Suspects this solution won't be cross-platform: verification requires Linux fs verity method

        • Also allows L3AFd to install anything it wants if L3AFd is in the allow list, Could be a security flaw

      • Matteo's approach allows individual signing and allows individual verfication, reputation, etc.

      • Raga: Where is the signature exactly? Do you still have the verification step on signed programs? Use case please.

      • Matteo: XDP. SOme BPF programs take actions on packets. These can be loaded and attached to network drivers.

        • Malicious programs can mangle pacet traffic (very dnagerous). Must make sure that program is safe.

      • Dave: Big value add: signing instead of verification step.

        • Verification step can be CPU intensive. Signature check is cheap.

        • Verification and signing together does not give this benefit. This is what the patch does.

      • Raga: Does this work for UM progs also? Yes.

      • Dave: Other approach with white list? How is this different from cap BPF?

        • Matteo: Whitelist  enforces Cap BPF.

      • Dave: L3AFd pushes out both kernel function as well as a program that can use the kernel function.

        • Matteo: Whitelist is a list programs that can be loaded

      • Matteo: Sig verification is before verification check.

      • Dave: Also reduces DOS style attacks.

        • If sig check fails then verification does not run and waste cycles.

      • Santhosh: Verifier runs only once at load time.

        • Dave: Yes, but you can spin the loader.

    • Dave: That is the intro.

      • If we can get several orgs to support this then we can approach the BSC.

    • Vicky: Once the video for the call is available we can take this to the mailing list.

    • Lous: Cancelling next weeks call on the 22nd?

    • Dave: Nope, on vacation.

    • Vicky: Probably most people have made plans so Jan 5th would be better.

    • Matteo: PR is urgent for MSFT because we want a signature system.

      • It's too dangerous to load untrusted BPF programs

    • Dave: Please post opinions on Linux Kernel mailing list sooner rather than later.

    • Dave: Include signing into the BSC meeting on Jan 12th at 1PM PST.

  • Lous: Please register for Dev and Test Forum

Action Items

Schdule Dev & Testing Forum L3AF session (LJ/Daniel/Poorna)
Schedule call with Raga to fill out the PEN application. (LJ/Raga)
Ask BSC if the meeting can be open to the public (Dave)
Vicky: Will post to mailing list so that people can discuss signing on list after watching video.

Future Agenda Items



***** Minutes from previous call *****

  • Abhi Patil: Where is the L3AF project at currently? (high level overview)

    • Orchestration across any eBPF platform in order to solve business problems

    • L3AFd which runs on any host.

    • Many eBPF programs - see wiki

    • Create marketplace/repo of eBPF programs

    • Simplify chaining of eBPF programs

    • extend eBPF programs to Kubernetes

  • Abhi P:

    • Targeting DDOS programs

    • Lead for DDOS initiative

      • Peraton Labs and Georgia tech working on their project

  • Karan: More details on the and use case yo move forward

  • General Topics (cover as needed)

    • Use Cases

    • eBPF program (soon to be open sourced)

      • export records in IBPF format

      • Enterprise number will be needed for this

      • Dave T: eBPF programs that will be put into marketplace

        • L3AF could include signed programs

        • samples

        • Include other programs that are not signed by L3AF

      • Is L3AF a framework for marketplace?

      • Vicky B: Peel off marketplace from L3AF?

        • Handled by different team that works with L3AF so it can support different project such as Polycube 

      • Dave T: Is the PEN for L3AF

      • Karan: L3AF team is contributing programs and that is what the PEN is for.

    • Jason: Agree with Dave, be careful with diluting L3AF

      • Wallmart added programs should not be natively part of L3AF itself, but rather the Wallmart contribution to L3AF

    • Dave T: Could you use a Wallmart PEN and contribute that to L3AF?

    • Karan: Once the eBPF program is OSSed then we should use the Wallmart PEN and it should be under the LF after OSSing

      • What kind of signing are we looking for?

        • Verification that the eBPF programs are compatible with the L3AF platform

          • For instance chaining.

          • Need deeper dive.

    • Dave T: Whose PEN do you use. Whoever the signer is going to be?

      • Karan: For now we don't have a clear bifurcation. It's just one L3AF.

        • We should consider how to do this.

      • Louis: IPfix program, is this a one time sign off or every time it is used?

        • Dave T: Whenever there is a change to the program it must be resigned. Not a one time thing.

        • PEN is a one time number. The signature changes with updates and revs.

      • Karan: If someone wants to use IPfix and change the PEN they can do this. Not tying anyone to the existing PEN.

      • Dave T: Then it would be a different program. Stars and other marketplace artifacet would be invalidated.

      • Christopher L: Maintainer of the code should sign the code. The org that controls the commit bit.

      • Raga P: planning to use PEN on IPfix to define custom fields. If there is no PEN then it would be an unknown field.

      • Karan: Anyone could pass a PEN into these fields and change things. If you don't change things then you get the predefined custom fields.

        • Term L3AF has been overloaded. L3AF team, platform, project, marketplace

      • Dave T: L3AF is the foundation. The more we put programs into it the more it becomes the L3A instead of L3AF.

      • Karan: If L3AF is the platform (L3AFd) how do we want to structure the remaining components?

        • Keep L3AF marketplace as a separate project? Should we drop the L3AF branding on it?

      • Vicky: Makes sense to have the marketplace be a separate thing with separate branding that is closely tied into L3AF.

        • L3AF becomes the initial consumer of this, but we plan for other consumers.

      • Louis: Consider breaking off separate projects under L3AF to ensure that the output of these is compatible with L3AF.

        • Common in OSS world for Project Tech Leads to spin off other projects in this manner.

      • Vicky: Makes a lot of sense to have things under L3AF initially. Perhaps move them later (eBPF Foundation).

      • Jason: Small set of programs provided by L3AF itself and make sure they are compatible to help get things started in the begining.

      • Vicky: This will help to get L3AF off the ground with a small set of programs that are useful and work.

      • Jason: Yeah, these could be examples and building blocks that others can use.

      • Karan: Definitely a good thing.

      • Dave T: 3 catergories of stuff: core daemon, marketplace, programs

        • Which one should be in different projects?

        • Are they all under the L3AF?

        • Where do the programs go?

        • Is the marketplace part of the L3AF repo?

        • Multiple marketplaces (Google, Apple, etc.). Is the marketplace part of the foundation?

        • Does L3AF just contain samples? Leaning towards this one?

      • Vicky: If marketplace is separate this is incredibly valuable because orgs can run their own marketplace. Should be a separate project.

      • LJ: are any programs in the marketplace paid for items?

      • DaveT: Yes, Vicky: leave door open

      • LJ: Not sure it should be OSS?

      • DaveT: Marketplace is not the programs. Paid programs can be distributed by on open source marketplace.

      • Vicky: cannot confuse monitization strategy with the licensing strategy. For pay programs should not be excluded from an OSS project. It's the licensing.

      • Brian M: This is good. Will take all these thoughts and work them into paper. Available this month(?), when we reconvene.

      • Karan: Better to leave it open so that it is an attractive proposition for folks to contribute. We need to iterate on this a little more.

      • Vicky: Brian's paper will help us to create a parallel working group to address this.

      • Jason: Start them in the base and then move when available.

    • Housekeeping: Next meeting is the 15th. Dec 22 and 29th are cancelled, reconvene on January 5th for Dev and testing forum prep